engine of souls | forum 2

MONARCHY!!!!!!!!

Yes, the monarchy has been around since the ages as man has been on this Earth. Why now should we change our governmental system....

The King knows what is best for our community and has never steered us in the wrong course before. We should follow him as we have always done in the past.



               

JarredCondez wrote:

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Yes this hurt us all but you also dump tea in the horbor that had no help to you or anyone else

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I never dumped tea in the harbor so why should Ibe punished? 

and another note how is your "new" govornment so different from parliment

Walter wrote:

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JarredCondez wrote:

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Why would we want to change our way of life by trying to revolt against the king

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because the lives of the colonist were bad under the rule of Britain. What good is closing the port of Boston going to do for me if im a Bostonian Merchant who had nothing to do with the revolution?

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We should respect the action of our Britianic King..... and for the reason he closed the port of Boston is that the colonial people revolted in such a manner that should of been pomish

JarredCondez wrote:

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Yes this hurt us all but you also dump tea in the horbor that had no help to you or anyone else

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The indians did it.  And we don't want your high taxed tea anyways.

Join the fight for independance!

How can loyalists not see the tyranny that King George and the brutes in Parliament have been subjecting us to for so long? The Declaration of Independance gives a clearly defined list of things that the King has done wrong. We have tried to remain loyal, but it is becoming far too difficult. Just look at all of the reasons we have. They're right there in the Declaration of Independance!

"He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions."
-Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of Independance; 1776
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence

Hi, I'm John Adams (for now), and I'm a leader of the revolution. Firstly, as Robert noted, we have more than enough reasons to revolt. However, some of you may be wondering what kind of government we put into place once we triumph over British tyranny. I cannot speak for sure, being only one man, but I can assure you it will not be the "mob rule" many imagine a republic can become. As I once wrote (1), "The first necessary step... is to depute power from the many to a few of the most wise and good. But by what rules shall you choose our representatives? Agree upon the number and qualifications of persons who shall have the benefit of choosing, or annex this privilege to the inhabitants of a certain extent of ground." Essentially, we can ensure that good politicians make laws by making sure we have a decent control over who votes. "Mob rule" would become impossible, and yet we would all still be able to live within the liberty of a republic.

Now, I put out an open question to anyone listening: If not mob rule, what, then what would be wrong with the new government?
1. John Adams, "Thoughts on Government". 1776 (http://wps.ablongman.com/long_nash_mhlap_7/52/13314/3408500.cw/index.html)

JarredCondez wrote:

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Walter wrote:

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JarredCondez wrote:

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and another note how is your "new" govornment so different from parliment

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our new governemnt is a better version of Parliament. There is no nobles, and other suck nonsense. You guys are the PC and AMerica is the MAC we're just better lol

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and how are you better. who is to say you are better

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How can we not say that our Government will be better? Anything will be better than the tyranny under King George!

dear jarred.

we are better because the free man can vote. The people of our land arent oppressed by your foolish king, and they have the power to elect WHOEVER they want. There is no "you can only vote nobles." ANYONE can run for an office in America.

R. Krupa wrote:

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JarredCondez wrote:

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Walter wrote:

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JarredCondez wrote:

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and another note how is your "new" govornment so different from parliment

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our new governemnt is a better version of Parliament. There is no nobles, and other suck nonsense. You guys are the PC and AMerica is the MAC we're just better lol

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and how are you better. who is to say you are better

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How can we not say that our Government will be better? Anything will be better than the tyranny under King George!

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yes but if the ideals of your government is the same as ours and based off ours how can you be sure your  government will be so much better?

The reign of the King comes to an end of swift wings.  His tyranny shall no longer deny us simple rights such having a town meeting.  A change of government is completly necessarily when Parliment punishes its colonies instead of trying to solve its problems.

If I may jump in, Dr. Condez, our government will not have a King who can arbitrarily pass down nonsensical and oppressive laws. James, if you could just read my post a bit earlier, I think I already answered that point.

     The revolution is completely ridiculous and the patroits are most definitely going to lose. Become a loyalist! The British have a superior army compared to the patriots, as well as the best navy in the world, as proven by the French and Indian War. Why should we fight our mothercountry? The people in Britain pay taxes for the French and Indian War debt of 145 million pounds, so why should we not? If i am not mistaken, this war was fought in North America, not Britain.

Grenville, the chief minister of the young George III, faced a £145 million national debt (which had only been £75 million before the war and a heavily-taxed population the the British Isles. Plus he had to find the funds with which to pay the 10,000 soldiers stationed in North America. http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=651

    

"The first necessary step... is to depute power from the many to a few of the most wise and good. But by what rules shall you choose our representatives?"


But John Adams, what would these rules be?
Would it require property, or certain social status?

"Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but "to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER," and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God."   Thomas Paine's American Crisis.

This statement is the undeniable truth that the colonists live under everyday they are opressed by the British Gov. This is the reason we need to rebel. It is not living if you live in fear of the fact that an Army is waiting around waiting to destroy you if you mess up once. Can you live in that fear? Because i cannot and this is why i revolt.

James wrote:

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Anyone can run for office in the new government?
How can you ensure that the new government will not mold itself to the same standards as Parliament, with America having its own "nobles?"

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Actually, many people could not run for office: Native Americans, women, the poor, slaves...

G. Larsen wrote:

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If I may jump in, Dr. Condez, our government will not have a King who can arbitrarily pass down nonsensical and oppressive laws. James, if you could just read my post a bit earlier, I think I already answered that point.

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 not to sound like im hitting the same note but how can you be so sure if your government is almost ideantical to ours then how do you know that yours will not twist and currupt as you think the crown has?

Jessica! wrote:

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     The revolution is completely ridiculous and the patroits are most definitely going to lose. Become a loyalist! The British have a superior army compared to the patriots, as well as the best navy in the world, as proven by the French and Indian War. Why should we fight our mothercountry? The people in Britain pay taxes for the French and Indian War debt of 145 million pounds, so why should we not? If i am not mistaken, this war was fought in North America, not Britain.

Grenville, the chief minister of the young George III, faced a £145 million national debt (which had only been £75 million before the war and a heavily-taxed population the the British Isles. Plus he had to find the funds with which to pay the 10,000 soldiers stationed in North America. http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=651

    

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The people in Britain pay taxes, and have representation as well! In the words of Patrick Henry: "Give me Liberty; or give me Death!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_henry

CodyCarmo wrote:

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Is the American way of government truely free walter When half of your population is slaves and poor farmers and the other half is women. will you allow all of them to vote or just your 5% of Rich white males democracy isnt truely freedom as walter says or is it going to become exactly what you are so called against ?

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Ah we may have some restrictions, but not as many as Britain. In Britain you must be a rich Noble to vote. In America you must only be a white male in order to vote. you do not have to be rich to vote in America. All you have to do is to have the guts to go and vote for whoever you think is most responsible.

CEsteves wrote:

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i concur, were you to seperate and make a new form of government, it may stay as you want it for awhile and everything will be just dandy.

However...

Eventually, political leaders will become corrupt and everything has a chance of becoming even worse then they are now.

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        Corruption is inevitable, but rather it be corruption we can stop because it is so near, than corruption from 3000 miles away, we cannot touch. duh.

Rachel wrote:

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and also what would America be without the British government, without us they wouldnt even be in the new world, we allowed them to go there as long as they helped the mother country. we fought off the french so there wouldnt be any threats for us or them, and all they do is complain. we've given them so much and all they've given us is rebellion and now they want to be independent ! they would be nothing without us, WEEE ! made them . so why would they betray us : ( it just doesnt make sense.

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Actually Rachel most of the soldiers who fought in the French and Indian war were colonists. At the Battle of Fort Necessity the British had 300 men. Only 1/3 were British regulars. the other 2/3 were colonial militia

mfloyd24 wrote:

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CEsteves wrote:

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The King knows what is best for our community and has never steered us in the wrong course before. We should follow him as we have always done in the past.



               

MONARCHY!

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If the King has done nothing to wrong us, then why do you have colonists revolting against the crown? It is apparent that we colonists are not pleased with the way the King is ruling us. I believe the fact that it is one single person that is ruling us alone is the problem. It is he who makes the decisions, as opposed to the citizens who make the decisions. The only way we can have a productive government, is by haveing a government who knows what is best for the people.

 

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Your idea of the citizens making the decisions sounds good.
But, you may end up having citizens who do not know what it is that will truely benefit them. They may well end up messing things up for themselves even more! And then where will you be?

 

James wrote:

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"The first necessary step... is to depute power from the many to a few of the most wise and good. But by what rules shall you choose our representatives?"


But John Adams, what would these rules be?
Would it require property, or certain social status?

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Why yes, James, yes it would.  That's precisely what I meant when I stated, "Agree upon the number and qualifications of persons who shall have the benefit of choosing, or annex this privilege to the inhabitants of a certain extent of ground." earlier.  These qualifications would be determined by an assembly much like the Continental Congress, as well as the lengths of the certain extent of ground.  Remember, though (1), Parliament requires even stricter standards than we would for voters.  And our system would not have a king, since as the segment of the Declaration of Independence posted earlier notes, kings can turn into tyrants.  Our system would give the people a voice but not let it overpower reason.

(forgot my source, 1, http://www.georgianindex.net/Election/election.html)

-- Edited by G. Larsen at 13:52, 2008-09-18

Rachel wrote:

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and also what would America be without the British government, without us they wouldnt even be in the new world, we allowed them to go there as long as they helped the mother country. we fought off the french so there wouldnt be any threats for us or them, and all they do is complain. we've given them so much and all they've given us is rebellion and now they want to be independent ! they would be nothing without us, WEEE ! made them . so why would they betray us : ( it just doesnt make sense.

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How can you say you fought the French for us? With everything you gained from it, what did we get? All we got was higher taxes and poor help from the crown. Why should we pay for a war we got nothing from? We helped you fight and eventually win the war, and you give us nothing.

Tyler W. wrote:

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My dear Englishmen and women,
There is no right in wanting to rebel against the English crown. We established these colonies as a way to profit from the land, and for the common people to profit also. Independence from the crown is not better, because it will cause anarchy, and eventually the decimation of our nation. If the colonies are in a state of stupor, we will be no better than the Indians we hunt and kill, like the savages they are. If we are anarchists, where is the order in the world? Is it going to be left to the other European countries, who have done nothing for you. Parliament in itself is the only true democratic ideal in this world! How dare you even question where democracy started! It was us!

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        For a time, we colonists governed ourselves, our own mini-governments. Only a few years ago did they begin to interfere so heavily, and it was then that things seemed to go array.

Yes. WE are trying to scare the colonists away from a monarchy, because if we dont we will probably end up having our own king, and then our revolution would have been in vain. Monarchy is not the way to go, because then only one person has the final say, as in Britain, but in a republic the people have the power to decide via our elected representatives

Dear Commons,
I am writing to you today to inspire you and give you information that I am hoping will bring you over to the better cause. What we the Patriots are trying to do is prove to you that our time is now to take over these colonies from the unjust British Government. We would not be going out into this war if we knew that we wouldn't have a chance to come out with a victory. One thing we need though is you. With the support of all the commons in the colonies it would make this war easier on us. The Patriots support everything in which we want in the colonies. We support the young, old, farmers, merchants, and planters. We also have views on political, social, economical, and ethnic backgrounds that would benifet the colonists the most. If you help us to win this war, then we well help you to our full extent. All of you commons would be a great aspect of this war, and we would much appriciate it if you would join our cause.
"As a group, Patriots comprised men and women representing the full array of social, economic, ethnic and racial backgrounds. They included college students like Alexander Hamilton, planters like Thomas Jefferson, merchants like Alexander McDougall, and plain farmers like Daniel Shays and Joseph Plumb Martin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution)

In deed you have profited from the French and Indian war if you say you have not look at the facts without us we would all would have lost the americas to the french and if we did not help you you would be crying to us because the french wiped you out, but since we helped you your colonies have since been expanded. But realize that as one team one power the british and americans can become one powerful monarchy.

And to pay for the war debt theat we have been put in we ask for a simple raise in taxes to benefit our mother england
The Sugar Act is passed by the English Parliament to offset the war debt brought on by the French and Indian War and to help pay for the expenses of running the colonies and newly acquired territories. This act increases the duties on imported sugar and other items such as textiles, coffee, wines and indigo (dye). that s not a bad reason for increased taxes considering that the british government helps you so much

Zach W.-
If your ancestors wanted to get away from England, they should of went to French Canada

Rachel wrote:

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Walter wrote:

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Rachel wrote:

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and also what would America be without the British government, without us they wouldnt even be in the new world, we allowed them to go there as long as they helped the mother country. we fought off the french so there wouldnt be any threats for us or them, and all they do is complain. we've given them so much and all they've given us is rebellion and now they want to be independent ! they would be nothing without us, WEEE ! made them . so why would they betray us : ( it just doesnt make sense.

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Actually Rachel most of the soldiers who fought in the French and Indian war were colonists. At the Battle of Fort Necessity the British had 300 men. Only 1/3 were British regulars. the other 2/3 were colonial militia

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which goes to show you that they believed in the British cause, not all colonists were against the crown (which i thank my fellow loyalists for) , and the other half didnt know what they wanted so yes they did fight for us, but once we asked them to help payy for protecting THERE property, the rebellion began. no ?

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You didn't fight for OUR property, you fought to gain more for YOUR property and give us absolutely nothing but more tax.

Zachary W. wrote:

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Jessica! wrote:

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     The revolution is completely ridiculous and the patroits are most definitely going to lose. Become a loyalist! The British have a superior army compared to the patriots, as well as the best navy in the world, as proven by the French and Indian War. Why should we fight our mothercountry? The people in Britain pay taxes for the French and Indian War debt of 145 million pounds, so why should we not? If i am not mistaken, this war was fought in North America, not Britain.

Grenville, the chief minister of the young George III, faced a £145 million national debt (which had only been £75 million before the war and a heavily-taxed population the the British Isles. Plus he had to find the funds with which to pay the 10,000 soldiers stationed in North America. http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=651

    

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Although the french and Indian War was fought in North America and NOT Britain does not make me as a commoner to be responsible to pay for it. Even if the war was fought in my own back yard it doesn't mean that I wished for it to take place. Also who's to say I even gained anything from this war.

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You have gained the lands east of the Mississippi River, is that not enough? The proclamation line of 1763 was never meant to be permanent. It was made to protect the colonist from the Indians until treaties could be made and land was explored.

ZachB wrote:

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Walter wrote:

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Yes. WE are trying to scare the colonists away from a monarchy, because if we dont we will probably end up having our own king, and then our revolution would have been in vain. Monarchy is not the way to go, because then only one person has the final say, as in Britain, but in a republic the people have the power to decide via our elected representatives

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A king is proper way to rule for we will have stable head of government unlike in a republican form of government

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       One man to head a government is NOT stable. What if this man changes his ideals? Or if he goes mad? What do you propose then? That you stand and watch your country go under, just becuase it is his birthright?

Rachel wrote:

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and also what would America be without the British government, without us they wouldnt even be in the new world, we allowed them to go there as long as they helped the mother country. we fought off the french so there wouldnt be any threats for us or them, and all they do is complain. we've given them so much and all they've given us is rebellion and now they want to be independent ! they would be nothing without us, WEEE ! made them . so why would they betray us : ( it just doesnt make sense.

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We did not choose to rebel against England, they FORCED us to. Thetreatment we have been subjected to has become unbearable. John Locke's theory of the "social contract" the natural right of the people to overthrow their leaders, should those leaders betray the historic rights of Englishmen. Isn't that what you said, that we are English subjects? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution
These "rights of Englishmen are listed as:

"The right to trial by jury, jury by peers

Security in one's home from unlawful entry

No taxation without representation

Regular discussion

No cruel and unusual punishments

The right to rebel"
 
Britain is in violation of EVERY ONE of these rights!
Citizens were shipped back to Britain for a quick trial; hardly of their peers.
Quartered troops in our homes without our consaent.
Taxed us HEAVILY without representation in Parliament
Did not communicate with the colonies regarding laws
And often gave ridiculous sentences for meager crimes and offences.

Therefore we are simply exercizing our right to REBEL!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_Englishmen

 

CodyCarmo wrote:

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In deed you have profited from the French and Indian war if you say you have not look at the facts without us we would all would have lost the americas to the french and if we did not help you you would be crying to us because the french wiped you out, but since we helped you your colonies have since been expanded. But realize that as one team one power the british and americans can become one powerful monarchy.

And to pay for the war debt theat we have been put in we ask for a simple raise in taxes to benefit our mother england
The Sugar Act is passed by the English Parliament to offset the war debt brought on by the French and Indian War and to help pay for the expenses of running the colonies and newly acquired territories. This act increases the duties on imported sugar and other items such as textiles, coffee, wines and indigo (dye). that s not a bad reason for increased taxes considering that the british government helps you so much

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Why should we be taxed without repesentation we did not agree to be taxed?

Walter wrote:

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ZachB wrote:

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Walter wrote:

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Yes. WE are trying to scare the colonists away from a monarchy, because if we dont we will probably end up having our own king, and then our revolution would have been in vain. Monarchy is not the way to go, because then only one person has the final say, as in Britain, but in a republic the people have the power to decide via our elected representatives

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A king is proper way to rule for we will have stable head of government unlike in a republican form of government

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you only have a stable head of governemtn, until he suffers a mental breakdown and looses his mind, but you cant do anything because hes not dead so he still has to rule as king

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Yes our King might of lost his mind but yet he had his privy council to help him make tolreable decision for his subjects.

BKoster wrote:

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Dear Commons,
I am writing to you today to inspire you and give you information that I am hoping will bring you over to the better cause. What we the Patriots are trying to do is prove to you that our time is now to take over these colonies from the unjust British Government. We would not be going out into this war if we knew that we wouldn't have a chance to come out with a victory. One thing we need though is you. With the support of all the commons in the colonies it would make this war easier on us. The Patriots support everything in which we want in the colonies. We support the young, old, farmers, merchants, and planters. We also have views on political, social, economical, and ethnic backgrounds that would benifet the colonists the most. If you help us to win this war, then we well help you to our full extent. All of you commons would be a great aspect of this war, and we would much appriciate it if you would join our cause.
"As a group, Patriots comprised men and women representing the full array of social, economic, ethnic and racial backgrounds. They included college students like Alexander Hamilton, planters like Thomas Jefferson, merchants like Alexander McDougall, and plain farmers like Daniel Shays and Joseph Plumb Martin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution)

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Why should I fight to seperate myself from Britain when my economic welfare is based on Britain? How would I benefit from independence?

Jessica! wrote:

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Zachary W. wrote:

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Jessica! wrote:

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     The revolution is completely ridiculous and the patroits are most definitely going to lose. Become a loyalist! The British have a superior army compared to the patriots, as well as the best navy in the world, as proven by the French and Indian War. Why should we fight our mothercountry? The people in Britain pay taxes for the French and Indian War debt of 145 million pounds, so why should we not? If i am not mistaken, this war was fought in North America, not Britain.

Grenville, the chief minister of the young George III, faced a £145 million national debt (which had only been £75 million before the war and a heavily-taxed population the the British Isles. Plus he had to find the funds with which to pay the 10,000 soldiers stationed in North America. http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=651

    

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Although the french and Indian War was fought in North America and NOT Britain does not make me as a commoner to be responsible to pay for it. Even if the war was fought in my own back yard it doesn't mean that I wished for it to take place. Also who's to say I even gained anything from this war.

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You have gained the lands east of the Mississippi River, is that not enough? The proclamation line of 1763 was never meant to be permanent. It was made to protect the colonist from the Indians until treaties could be made and land was explored.

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I have yet to be allowed to enter these new lands per the orders of the Proclamation of 1763.

Tyler W. wrote:

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Zach W.-
If your ancestors wanted to get away from England, they should of went to French Canada

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       We did not want from our motherland, we wanted opportunity. It is the corrupt and abrasive ways that we were handled, like naughty children, and not like men that draw us away. 

COMMONERS!

Tell me that which is what side you have begun to agree with!
DO IT QUICKLY!

*COUGH*TheCrownRules*COUGH*

keithfortin wrote:

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Rachel wrote:

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Walter wrote:

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Rachel wrote:

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and also what would America be without the British government, without us they wouldnt even be in the new world, we allowed them to go there as long as they helped the mother country. we fought off the french so there wouldnt be any threats for us or them, and all they do is complain. we've given them so much and all they've given us is rebellion and now they want to be independent ! they would be nothing without us, WEEE ! made them . so why would they betray us : ( it just doesnt make sense.

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Actually Rachel most of the soldiers who fought in the French and Indian war were colonists. At the Battle of Fort Necessity the British had 300 men. Only 1/3 were British regulars. the other 2/3 were colonial militia

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which goes to show you that they believed in the British cause, not all colonists were against the crown (which i thank my fellow loyalists for) , and the other half didnt know what they wanted so yes they did fight for us, but once we asked them to help payy for protecting THERE property, the rebellion began. no ?

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yes we were ALL loyal to the crown then.  But after that the crown trampled our rights, taxing us at every corner.  A time comes when enough is enough.  If your brother, who took care of you most of your life, started to punch you square in the face 6 times a day, would you still say he loves and takes care of you?

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So common people i call upon you to join our revolution. It might not be "Glorious" like the British rebellion, but if you join us you will be able to win more freedom than you could ever imagine under british rule unless you were the King himself.

But the common man in England also has no say in Parliament. Why should we be any different?

Zachary W. wrote:

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Jessica! wrote:

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Zachary W. wrote:

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Jessica! wrote:

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     The revolution is completely ridiculous and the patroits are most definitely going to lose. Become a loyalist! The British have a superior army compared to the patriots, as well as the best navy in the world, as proven by the French and Indian War. Why should we fight our mothercountry? The people in Britain pay taxes for the French and Indian War debt of 145 million pounds, so why should we not? If i am not mistaken, this war was fought in North America, not Britain.

Grenville, the chief minister of the young George III, faced a £145 million national debt (which had only been £75 million before the war and a heavily-taxed population the the British Isles. Plus he had to find the funds with which to pay the 10,000 soldiers stationed in North America. http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=651

    

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Although the french and Indian War was fought in North America and NOT Britain does not make me as a commoner to be responsible to pay for it. Even if the war was fought in my own back yard it doesn't mean that I wished for it to take place. Also who's to say I even gained anything from this war.

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You have gained the lands east of the Mississippi River, is that not enough? The proclamation line of 1763 was never meant to be permanent. It was made to protect the colonist from the Indians until treaties could be made and land was explored.

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I have yet to be allowed to enter these new lands per the orders of the Proclamation of 1763.

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Well maybe if the patriots had not revolted and used violence so many times, you would have been let into these new lands.

Jessica! wrote:

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Walter wrote:

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R. Krupa wrote:

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Join the fight for independance!

How can loyalists not see the tyranny that King George and the brutes in Parliament have been subjecting us to for so long? The Declaration of Independance gives a clearly defined list of things that the King has done wrong. We have tried to remain loyal, but it is becoming far too difficult. Just look at all of the reasons we have. They're right there in the Declaration of Independance!

"He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions."
-Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of Independance; 1776
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence

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thank you robert for proving our point on why we should revolt.

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Why are you blaming the King for these so called "unjust" laws when Parliment passed them? Is it becuase you do not want to scare your people away from a Republican form of government?

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Does the King not have a say in Parliament? Surely he influences all of their decisions. And yet we are still treated poorly. We need a government run by the people for the general good of the people. DOWN WITH MONARCHY! DOWN WITH KING GEORGE!

keithfortin wrote:

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Rachel wrote:

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Walter wrote:

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Rachel wrote:

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and also what would America be without the British government, without us they wouldnt even be in the new world, we allowed them to go there as long as they helped the mother country. we fought off the french so there wouldnt be any threats for us or them, and all they do is complain. we've given them so much and all they've given us is rebellion and now they want to be independent ! they would be nothing without us, WEEE ! made them . so why would they betray us : ( it just doesnt make sense.

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Actually Rachel most of the soldiers who fought in the French and Indian war were colonists. At the Battle of Fort Necessity the British had 300 men. Only 1/3 were British regulars. the other 2/3 were colonial militia

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which goes to show you that they believed in the British cause, not all colonists were against the crown (which i thank my fellow loyalists for) , and the other half didnt know what they wanted so yes they did fight for us, but once we asked them to help payy for protecting THERE property, the rebellion began. no ?

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yes we were ALL loyal to the crown then.  But after that the crown trampled our rights, taxing us at every corner.  A time comes when enough is enough.  If your brother, who took care of you most of your life, started to punch you square in the face 6 times a day, would you still say he loves and takes care of you?

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we didnt tax you at every corner , we had a HUGEE war debt to pay off, and the war wasnt for us, it was for you so why should our country pay for it, when we were protecting the colonies, and even after we taxed you A LITTLE BIT we listened to you , gave you CHEAPER tea than your own smuggeled tea, repealed a couple taxes and yet you still complained. america is stubborn and spoiled and i think if we all work together at this we can bring it back to that English glory we used to have but there is no need for revolution

Shorey wrote:

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mfloyd24 wrote:

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This is for the common Americans;

It is completely necessary for us to break away from the rule of Great Britain. The British Government is doing nothing to improve our colonies. They tax us without out consent, or input. They also do not allow us in the Parliament. How are we considered part of Great Britain if we hold no place in their government system, other than to be the subjects of their laws?

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You make a good point but are we ready to be independent as a country can we give ourselves the economic and physical protection that is needed?

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I believe that our young country is ready to support ourselves. We supported

ourselves very well during the time of Salutary Neglect. Once we are independent we will be in a time even better stabilization, because we will be able to trade with the countries we smuggled with during  salutary neglect openly, and make more money.

R. Krupa wrote:

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We did not choose to rebel against England, they FORCED us to. Thetreatment we have been subjected to has become unbearable.

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    No one can force you to do anything, as most of the common americans can tell you. We have not been forced to take sides. We have not been forced to see our families fight among themselves. it has happened because people have been swayed so easily. 
    Why should I believe that you are right, and that we had to fight England. Why do we need independance??

becca wrote:

This is a perfect example of what could lead to anarchy.

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I said it before, and I'll say it again.  There will be no mob rule in the national government because, as I said, we can simply only allow those who possess certain favorable aspects to vote, like Parliament already does, but to a reasonably further extent.  Worst comes to worst, (1), we could have a representative house elect another house, as I detailed. "Let the representative assembly then elect by ballot, from among themselves or their constituents, or both, a distinct assembly, which, for the sake of perspicuity, We will call a council. It may consist of any number you please, say twenty or thirty, and should have a free and independent exercise of its judgment, and consequently a negative voice in the legislature. "
(1- Same citation as first post).